Curse

Trylo · Jan 31, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

SINCE my last post was so kindly closed before i got to explain my ideas (thanks for that, btw), i wanted to know why knockdowns arent used that much (excessively) in GvGs (at least many i have watched and participated in). So far there are RaOs, sometimes a gale ele and sometimes a KD war, but almost never all 3. If you could keep a 2 or 3 people down and out for 3 seconds you can effectively stop any hope of heals...

so why not have a team with a few /ele for gale?

it might make you a bit inefficient, but you will most likely have some sort of ele with bsurge (or me/e), a rit runner (already /ele for deep freeze?) and that means just one more person for gale.

This would, however, make your spikes mostly dependent on 3 people (2 monks, 3 /eles with different targets), but that only means dealing 600 damage in 3 seconds? If you had enraged charge wars i dont see how this would be that much of a problem, 2 air eles could probably accomplish this as well.

So, why not have a team like:

2 BSurge/gale ele primaries
1 Me/Ele for esurge or w/e with gale
1/2 enraged war (could use any weap really) /RaO
2 monks
1 Rit Runner (maybe with gale too)
1 tainted warder (or something)

would that not be effective at killing with an organized group?

JR · Jan 31, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Then you fight someone with a Ward of Stability and you lose.

Excellent idea sir.

romO · Jan 31, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Knockdown is the most powerful ability in the game. Gale is the most powerful skill in the game. Use it to its fullest. Not that the build idea that you posted was good, but you have the right idea.

JR, we've been running two gales, bull's charge, and a hammer warrior, and not once have we ran into a ward of stability. Plenty of balanced stance and maybe a brace yourself or two, which were nuisances, but other than that, the counters really aren't too prevalent.

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 31, 2007, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Knockdowns have been used extensively in pretty much every successful GvG match I've played in the last few months. The ability to temporarily disable a character is incredibly important both offensively and defensively. Gale is the most powerful spell in Guild Wars because it's so flexible and powerful, not to mention you can spam the crap out of it and only pay the costs later on. It already gets thrown on almost every caster with a free secondary because it's so good, except monks because they generally can't spare the skillslots or energy on a skill that isn't at its best defensively. I don't remember the last time I've seen a Me/E with B-surge and no Gale because Gale is just so good.

There is already a popular build dedicated to disabling the monks with Gales or Diversions, then spiking with physicals. This build is called Eurospike and it makes use of Shadow Prison warriors and Blinding Surge + Gale mesmers to disable monks while having an exceptionally strong spike. You don't have to look through a lot of observer mode matches to find one.

You suggest multiple B-surge eles, which really only make sense if you want B-surge but need another secondary to do your job (like ganking B-surgers going /A for Shadow of Haste and Feigned Neutrality.) The reason you see so many more Me/Es than E/xs is because Me/Es can get the two good skills out of the air line (B-surge and Gale) while using a bunch of extremely powerful non-elite skills from the Domination line. The only non-elite air skill you care about at all is Gale, but Domination is full of utility and spike goodies that get great mileage on a caster build.

The reason your Gustspammers from the other thread wouldn't work is because the characters are so inflexible. As soon as you can't knock down their monks for some reason (Balanced Stance, Ward of Stability, ect) you're deadweight and can no longer get any kills. With a Eurospike build you can still disable their monks with things like Diversion or Blackout, and your spike is much stronger because the casters are so difficult to interrupt. Inflexible characters aren't any good unless they're really good at what they do, and your guys weren't. Also, wrong section.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

Knockdown is the most powerful ability in the game.

Sorry Tommy, the most powerful ability in the game is Imbue Health.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 31, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Jr Runs Gale On Monks Squidget.

What Now Son?

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 31, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Jr Runs Gale On Monks Squidget.

What Now Son?

Want to know what else JR does?

Thomas.knbk · Jan 31, 2007, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Want to know what else JR does?

heal sig is for weaklings

EDIT: why was my post edited? is the word that was originally there in place of 'weaklings' offensive?

Divineshadows · Jan 31, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

Knockdown is the most powerful ability in the game. Gale is the most powerful skill in the game.

QFT. And gale so flexible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Sorry Tommy, the most powerful ability in the game is Imbue Health.

You, sir, are wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Jr Runs Gale On Monks Squidget.

What Now Son?

So have I from time to time. Great fun. Still, I like gale better when it is fast cast or when you have a bigger exhaustion buffer to work with.

JR · Jan 31, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

Knockdown is the most powerful ability in the game. Gale is the most powerful skill in the game. Use it to its fullest. Not that the build idea that you posted was good, but you have the right idea.

JR, we've been running two gales, bull's charge, and a hammer warrior, and not once have we ran into a ward of stability. Plenty of balanced stance and maybe a brace yourself or two, which were nuisances, but other than that, the counters really aren't too prevalent.

Just to clarify - i'm not disagreeing that knockdowns are very powerfull. As Tom said I've even run Gale on my Monk in GvG.... Infact right now I refuse to run a bar without Gale. My point was just that a build that relies entirely on KDs to get kills (which is what the OP seemed to be implying) is really not a great idea.

Trylo · Jan 31, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

sorry if i led you to that conclusion, JR, i dont really know any build that relies entirely on KDs (fetid ground spike ftl

)

But if you time it properly and KD both opponenets monks and unleash a multiclass spike (sword/axe, air, domination, ranger etc) ... ive seen a few builds like that and theyve all worked very well

Yue · Jan 31, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

" i wanted to know why knockdowns arent used that much (excessively) in GvGs "

I've had to edit this a few times since I wasn't quite sure what the "excessive" is supposed to mean.

Most teams have KD's on their warrior and at least one copy of gale. And gale alone can provide alot of kd's. As you increase the number of gales/kd's in the build, you're going to run into problems of redundancy. Not to mention certain opportunity costs of putting in an extra gale vs another skill. Past a certain point you're just wasting skill slots. There's more to a match than just kding the shit out of a team.

s w o r d y · Feb 01, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

heal sig is for weaklings

and res sig is planning for failure. As Frosty says "why waste a slot on something the guild hall does for me"

Mystic- · Feb 01, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

mending > rez sig
I mean why would u need a rez if u got mending!?!?? u just cant die :O

But yeah, some times the odd kd can be the different in a match, e.g time killing a monk so they base rez with dual kd's on each monk. Problem with kd's though is that they are just too easily countered on defensive chars, the only time they could be totally 100% usefull is when linebacking.

Jaws Of Doom · Feb 01, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

The problem that I've found with KDs is just timing when to use them. This is especially true with Gale since you can target anyone with it. Do you want to target a Monk and try to finish someone off, or a Dervish to prevent him from killing one of your own team members? And since the only two anti-KD skills you really see are Balanced Stance on a Mo/W or Ward of Stability every so often, just about everyone is a target for both attacking and defending purposes...

Linkie · Feb 01, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

I'd argue Brace Yourself is seeing a lot more use than Ward of Stability.

Trylo · Feb 01, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

ok well what would be a good balance of KDs in a gvg, i saw someone posted a basic gvg build with a few KD players in it, but what do other people think?

Thomas.knbk · Feb 01, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

ok well what would be a good balance of KDs in a gvg, i saw someone posted a basic gvg build with a few KD players in it, but what do other people think?

uhm
GALE GALE GALE GALE GALE GALE GALE GALE GALE GALE

Mystic- · Feb 01, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

I'd say 2 gales at the most, that way u can still KD if your forced to split (obviously gale on Team A AND Team B)

Thomas.knbk · Feb 01, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Um yeah. saying GALE 10 times didn't exactly mean you need 10 copies of gale. I'd run 1 in most cases, and hardly ever more than 2

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 01, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic-

I'd say 2 gales at the least

Fixed.

2-4 Gales (depending on how many you can fit), preferably at least one warrior with strong KD capability. A plain old Shock Axe is a pretty strong template right now, especially with Critical Chop. Whatever warrior you bring, try to give them Bull's Strike. Bull's Strike is one of the best warrior skills in the game.